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At Canadian border, does tight make right?


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At Canadian border, does tight make right?
Many Minnesotans living on the border fear proposed tougher rules for going back and forth will have disruptive repercussions.

By LARRY OAKES, Star Tribune

Last update: December 26, 2007 - 7:14 AM

http://www.startribune.com/local/12819642.html


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Some of this was covered in...

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Some of this was covered in the earlier topic of fattier customs agents (since removed); but it seems to me the primary problem at our border is an inability to measure success by the common sense goal in our post 911 world: how many Islamic terrorists did you capture today?, this week? this month, this year? the last 5 years?

I believe the answer to be zero for our port of entry on all counts. What is management to do? If you can't measure success by a direct method then other more in direct methods must be devised. That is why we have offices full of heavily armed, flack jacket wearing, highly trained border security professionals doing paperwork and fingerprinting 12 year olds.

Buck this problem up 9 or 10 levels of management and you will find the individuals responsible for requiring a guy to show his passport in order to go to work each day.

How about this solution:

Ask all agents to report to duty, line them up, have them count off by 3s and congratulate all the odd number winners on their new assignment in sunny El Paso where real work may exist.

The even number winners will have a full and busy job like they used to have before we started to look for Islamic terrorists where they ain't.


Submitted by bayside on December 26, 2007 - 10:17pm.

Whatever it takes to keep...

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Whatever it takes to keep the bad guys out is worth it. If you have to have a passport, so be it. Why are people upset that they now need a passport. Seems like it makes sense since it is a whole nother country and all. Terrorists could be anywhere and that's the point.


Submitted by nobody special on December 29, 2007 - 7:03pm.

nobody special, isn't it...

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nobody special, isn't it interesting that some people squawk about needing to show a passport? The only explanation I can think of is that they feel the personal inconvenience is more important than the attacks and threats from the OBL's of the world.


Submitted by RJ1127 on December 29, 2007 - 7:15pm.

Yws, very. I think alot of...

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Yws, very. I think alot of these people are worried they may not be able to get a passport if it is needed. Say maybe a person who got a dui a few years back and it hasn't caught up with them at the bridge. But, once you have a passport you can use it to go to any country. Can't you?


Submitted by nobody special on December 29, 2007 - 7:24pm.

sorry, that's yes not yws....

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sorry, that's yes not yws.


Submitted by nobody special on December 29, 2007 - 7:25pm.

nobody special, good point....

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nobody special, good point. I've had a passport for so many years I hadn't considered the possibility of somebody not being able to get one. I doubt that offenses such as dui would influence that. It's primarily a citizenship issue. And it does allow you travel to/from most any country.


Submitted by RJ1127 on December 29, 2007 - 7:51pm.

You'll have to excuse my not...

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You'll have to excuse my not knowing much about the process of getting a passport. I just know I have a DWI and therefore cannot enter canada.


Submitted by nobody special on December 29, 2007 - 7:58pm.

If the shoe bomber was the...

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If the shoe bomber was the underwear bomber would you cheerfully drop your drawers at the security checkpoint?

Since 1/1/2000 50 times as many people have died from Radon gas as have died in domestic terror attacks. Look it up. Where's the Radon gas outrage? You're not going to find it because it's not a political wedge issue that can be effectively used to win elections and keep or gain power.

Passports to go to work are just one more way to keep the wedge alive.


Submitted by bayside on December 30, 2007 - 11:50pm.

I would do whatever is...

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I would do whatever is necessary to keep our country safe. They may not keep a 'count' as to how many 'Islamic terrorists' they catch every day, mainly because it doesn't work that way. They are gathering information every single day both from border crossers here, yes here on the northern border, as well as all over the rest of the country that they can use to pin point and stop terrorists from entering our country and compromising our safety. In addition, there are a lot of 'bad people' out there that don't fit most ignorant people's ideas of what a terrorist may look like. Believe it or not but not every terrorist is of middle eastern heritage, so they do have to check 'us locals' as well. People commit crimes every day whether they are black, white, middle eastern or whatever. I have lived on the northern border my entire life and have never once been offended or angered because of the process they use at the border to keep us safe. As far as I am concerned, it is our choice to leave the US and therefore return - they don't force you to leave. It sounds as if you live in Canada and work down here - that is YOUR choice. No one, especially the officers at the border, force you to do so. So what is the big deal about getting a passport? It certainly is not going to make the lines move slower - if everyone knows they HAVE TO HAVE ONE they should have it out and ready when they get to the booth. So if anything, it should speed things along - less people getting up there and digging through glove compartments, etc for the papers they didn't know they needed. Besides - it's those people who aren't prepared when they get to the window that hold up the lines, not the officers.


Submitted by supernurse on January 5, 2008 - 8:50pm.

So if safety is more...

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So if safety is more important than freedom, then I have a further suggestion: state passports. If we could require border checks at each state line, we could keep criminials from fleeing over state lines. This idea worked spectacularly in the former USSR and seems to be a wonderful way to control movement. And honest people have nothing to worry about -- except the erosion of freedom. But the issue is safety, not freedom. Sorry to be so impudent, but the rest of the world is reducing barriers to entry as we are increasing them.


Submitted by Thomas L. Johnson on January 6, 2008 - 2:15am.

Maybe it's like the old...

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Maybe it's like the old saying, "what goes around, comes around"! We (the USA) have enjoyed a wonderful ride for decades as a "free and open Country, but that all changed when we got the wake up call on 9/11/01. As we all sat back and enjoyed our "free life", we became complacent and only thought that attacks and bombing of our OUR citizens, only happened overseas, by radical extremists. Well, a new tide is coming in, and yes, things have "come around". The people who are intent upon ruining our "way of life" here in the good ole USA, are coming to get us! And you can't blame it on Clinton, Bush, or the new President. They have just got it in their minds that we (USA) have to be destroyed, and our freedoms have got to cease to exist. Therefore, we have only a couple of options, a) sit back and do absolutely nothing, or b) go on the offensive and use every option at our disposal to hunt them down, and destroy them "before" they get to do another attack. But, how do we do this, may I ask, without having to give up a few freedoms we have gotten so used to having and using? I will admit that the terrorists will find and use, one or two of the "hundreds" of open holes in our porous borders, and deliver their weapons of mass destruction, and wipe out one or many of our large cities. But, we still have to keep finding ways to make it a "little" harder for them to sneak into our country. Therefore, I don't care one bit if I have to use my passport or birth certificate or whatever to get in and out of Canada. I will do whatever it takes to slow down these crazies, because, whether or not you want to admit it, they are on the way, and probably alot of them are already here. It is so sad that the American public is so naive, and has become so complacent to believe that we are 100% safe from these extremist nutjobs! Why has it come down to us having to get "another" 9/11 style wakeup call, to see that we are only a short time away from, the "head nutjob" overseas nodding his head again, to have them commence the bombing and killing of thousands of Americans. By the way, who wants to see my passport? And while you are at it, tap my phone lines too, because I have NOTHING to hide. I'm here to help in any way I can. Because "ownership" of this problem doesn't lie solely in the Whitehouse, the problems and threats belong to all of America!!


Submitted by roj2000 on January 6, 2008 - 11:50am.

Tlj--- where the hell are...

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Tlj--- where the hell are you coming from? Get your head out of the sand. Your loosing your freedom for showing your passport? Suck it up.You say you are sorry for being so impudent. Your sorry alright. Tell the families who lost their loved ones on 9 11 how sorry you are but gee whiz and gosh darn now you have to show your passport. What's the big deal? You would show a cop your drivers lisense a game warden your fishing lisense you buckle up cuz your told to. Have you lost your freedom ---- no just your fricking mind.


Submitted by six-shooter on January 6, 2008 - 11:06am.

Six-shooter, so glad to see...

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Six-shooter, so glad to see you've embraced the suspension of Habeas Corpus, the burning of the Bill of Rights, warrantless wiretaps, our fourteen intelligence services, big government from a Republican, irresponsible government spending by a Republican, invasion of the citizenry's privacy by a Republican, pre-emptive defense, unprovoked warfare, an idiot child President, susceptibility to fear, the mainstream myth of 911, FOX News propaganda and your own self-righteous, baseless self-aggrandizement. It's a slippery slope, itchbay, and unless you wake up, you'll be just another dumb, fat American with a gun and an attitude, bent on hating your neighbors and reporting your family. I'd fart upwind from you in a second.


Submitted by Joespoon04 on January 6, 2008 - 12:36pm.

six-shooter, Pls calm down...

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six-shooter,

Pls calm down before you have a stroke. I agree with you, but TLJ is just a "left leaning moderate" who tries to appease the "Bush haters" and Iraq War Protestors, with his "pechsniffian/anti-establishment" prose. He really means well, but has to "track down the middle" to maintain the "status quo"!! And don't let Joespoon04 get you down. I had thought he had gone out for a "spaghetti feed" and never returned. But, NO, "he's back". How about a little "conservative" censorship by the D.J. and get rid of his useless diatribe.


Submitted by roj2000 on January 6, 2008 - 1:38pm.

roj2000--- the best way to...

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roj2000--- the best way to get rid of a troll is to ignore them. P.S. I did calm down, and am enjoying this great day, have a good one.


Submitted by six-shooter on January 6, 2008 - 3:20pm.

Roj, it's not as though I'm...

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Roj, it's not as though I'm getting anyone down. I mean, come on . . . we're Americans! We're effing invincible! If any American feels hurt by what I say that's critical of America, I'll show you someone who should go back to France. You included, roj. Enjoy your cheese, BO-monkey.


Submitted by Joespoon04 on January 6, 2008 - 7:13pm.

I cannot believe I am...

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I cannot believe I am actually hearing people complain about losing freedom! What freedoms do you think we are losing by having to show a passport when you enter the country? How many times do you need to be told that it is your choice to leave the country and re-enter. The government is certainly not pushing anyone over international borders just so they have to go through the trouble of re-entry. All this 'everything is fine and dandy' and 'nothing bad can happen in OUR country' attitude completely disappeared on 9/11. If you think otherwise and therefore feel that we should keep on letting any body in because God forbid we make an AMERICAN show a passport, you are living in a fantasy world. Times are different now, we can't just wave everyone with a familiar face across without so much as a question. Believe it or not, Americans commit crimes too, so you can't just pick out any one who is of middle eastern backround and check them but no one else because 'we have a right to be here.' Yes you may have a right to be here, as do I, but I don't feel offended that they are checking people who enter, I think it is awesome! Beyond that, they are protecting us from more than just terrorists. We have people attempting to commit other crimes here every single day as well, like bringing in drugs, etc. We owe those men and women thanks every day as they are there day and night protecting us from harm.


Submitted by supernurse on January 7, 2008 - 8:06pm.

Ok, supernurse, perhaps...

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Ok, supernurse, perhaps having to show a passport at the border really isn't that great an inconvenience, and perhaps the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks (though as one who has lost not one but TWO passports...i live in a world of scatter and mess...I can tell you it IS a pain in the butt, and a lengthy process to get replaced...particularly when you don't realize you've lost the passport--what if i had planned a trip to Fort Frances during that time???). I'm not trained in security or intelligence gathering, and as it has been pointed out earlier posts, the "results" of sticter border measures don't exactly read out as "X number of terrorists stopped per Y number of strict measures imposed." I would assume that passport requirements would be more helpful at busier crossings, but if you applied different standards, then the area with the lower standards would then probably become more appealing to those who would cross illegally or with malicious intent. I get that. I imagine everyone ultimately gets that. The question is, when you're dealing with incremental measures like this, when each INDIVIDUAL measure doesn't seem like such a big deal, how do you know if/when you reach the "enough is enough" point? I mean, 9/11 happened, and obviously led us to realize that there might be aspects of security that should be strengthened...but this is still America, right? I assume that we would NOT want to erect a Berlin Wall-esque structure, with angry guards, machine guns, attack dogs at the Int'l Falls/Fort Frances crossing, right? I assume we wouldn't want to be the East Germany to Canada's West Germany, correct? So that seems like a pretty obvious "enough is enough" point (though maybe not for some people)...but where do you stop before there? One security measure? Two? Twenty? How would you even know??? The point isn't necessarily that showing passports at borders is a bad thing (although there are arguments that it is, in fact, not helpful), the point is that we as Americans, the pillar of freedom in the world, we should ALL be thinking about these things in terms of the civil liberties issues involved. Whether or not you choose to ultimately accept certain measures, ALL OF US should be worried, just a little bit, at least, at the imposition of measures that do curtail liberties in any way. Brushing it aside as "not a concern" isn't valid, to me, as an American. It should always be a concern. If you choose as your own person to forfeit some liberty for security, that is your choice, but as an American it is your responsibility and your right to at least appreciate the civil liberty argument.


Submitted by mwk1013 on January 8, 2008 - 6:37am.

Thanks, mwk, for your...

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Thanks, mwk, for your intelligent response. You nailed it with the one tiny word: incremental. In the last two presidential terms we have seen an incremental erosion of freedoms, all in the name of patriotism. The requirement of the Patriot Act, for instance, that librarians or bookstores turn over customer records is a small thing that doesn't hurt honest people, but it represents a governmental incursion into privacy.

In 1933, the German Parliament passed something called the Enabling Acts in response to a real event, the burning of the Reichstag. It gave the democratically elected leaders of Germany, named Hitler and Hindenberg, the right to set up secret camps [Dachau the first], limit free expression [book burnings of liberal authors], and crack down hard on illegal aliens [gypsies, Jews, and Jehovah's Witnesses]. It was all done to protect Germany from the threat of Communism. With the blessings of the man on the street. Over the next seven years, the incremental erosion of freedoms led to many of the most horrible events of the 20th Century.

If I am accused of being a moderate or a liberal, fine; I am nobody important. But if the mob mentality takes over here as it can in times of perceived danger, then voices of moderation need to be silenced. I sense that this blog is becoming the digital equivalent of an angry mob so it is refreshing when a voice like that of mwk1013 emerges.

I have enjoyed being part of this thing and will still be a reader on an regular basis, but I give it over to six shooter. And the ilk. And hopefully mwk1013 too. Enjoy the silence.


Submitted by Thomas L. Johnson on January 8, 2008 - 9:43am.

TLJ, Well, well, you are...

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TLJ,

Well, well, you are "bowing out"!!!! So sad, but understandable. I had thought of doing the same, when the "Pasta God" lovers were invading these same spaces, but I thought it over, and said, "neck no"! You know; "illegitimi non carborundum"!!!! So, I take it that the "ILK" you refer to is me? Well I will have to ponder that to see if it is a "left wing jab" or a compliment! But you know all through High School, I had "educrats" (so called teachers) calling me "ILK" so, I'm kind of used to the "know it alls" treating me as an "underling". Please chime in again, when you know that we are in need of "alignment"!! But, to compare the Patriot Act with Nazi Germany, is pure "left wing propaganda", and the "Class of 1965" knows it!!


Submitted by roj2000 on January 8, 2008 - 10:26am.

Have you noticed how quiet...

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Have you noticed how quiet it is on here today?? I swear I could have heard one of Hillary's tears drop!!!! LOL


Submitted by roj2000 on January 8, 2008 - 4:37pm.

mwk, the dilemma of course...

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mwk, the dilemma of course is the civil liberties argument can afford to be incrementally wrong here and there, the security concern against future attacks cannot afford to be wrong at all. As in most cases, it seems that 'common sense' may be too much to hope for. It's a challenge to have local crossings governed by bureaucrats thousands of miles away.

Deserve Victory


Submitted by RJ1127 on January 8, 2008 - 1:58pm.

Yes, that is part of the...

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Yes, that is part of the dilemma. The other part of the dilemma is at the margin between what are and aren't acceptable limitations of civil liberties. I believe it is easier to give up rights than to get them back, or earn them anew. How do you know how much is TOO much with respect to civil liberties? Will you know before you get there and put on the brakes? Or will you find yourself in some strange Orwellian scenario, scratching your head, wondering what the heck happened to your liberties? That's an obvious exaggeration...but gosh, who knows?


Submitted by mwk1013 on January 8, 2008 - 5:43pm.

I can think of restrictions...

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I can think of restrictions placed on us that hit a little closer to home, at least for me. If I need to drop my drawers to do my part, no prob. I'm sure that if you tried to cross with a tank of radon strapped on or layin in your ride or whatever, you'd likely be investigated for it. I know what you mean with the wedge thing and don't like politics any more than anyone else.


Submitted by nobody special on December 31, 2007 - 12:05am.

I wonder if any of the...

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I wonder if any of the Bader-Meinhof radicals, from Germany, are trying to cross the border anywhere. I was looking at local crossings the other day from 2nd street and 2nd avenue and was wondering how I would be able to tell a white, light hair colored man or women with blue eyes from say about a thousand "locals" that live here in town. Back in the 60's, 70's and 80's they were very active in taking up any radical cause that was available and I understand they still are. I wonder how a white Bader-Meinhof member, that was a radical muslim, that didn't like me or my government, would be able to be identified as, well, any differant then I look or many of you look. Most Germans speak better English then most of us and I am accused of speaking with an accent every time I return from Baumholder or Nurnberg. I sure hope nobody on the bridge forgets that I was born in town.


Submitted by Anton1965 on January 6, 2008 - 6:21pm.

....

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.


Submitted by Anton1965 on January 6, 2008 - 6:26pm.

I think we should also keep...

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I think we should also keep in mind a statement from ol' Ben Franklin:
"Those who give up their freedom for security, deserve neither"
While I think more stringent security is required after the easy time terrorists had taking over domestic flights in the US on 9/11, I think we also need to make sure ridiculous laws are not passed by knee-jerk politicians trying to make "brownie points" with their constituents. I sincerely hope we have permanently gotten past airport security strip-searching 80 yr old ladies!
I believe much, much more attention be given to our southern border because of its sieve status, but our northern border has had attempts to be penetrated, recalling in Washington state where a alert Customs Officer stopped terrorists with a car full of explosives (and there have been other attempts not heavily reported). As far as the Mexican border is concerned, I believe the problem could be solved with 3 words: "shoot to kill". Problem solved in about a week. And all you bleedin' heart liberals don't get your shorts in a bunch, I'm only kidding. Really.
I guess I am ******ed, though, that a drivers license and military ID are not good enough to cross into such a close ally as Canada, but the powers that be are only congressmen and such...predominantly Democrat at this point but I expect that to change shortly.
Also, Borderlanders wish for a localized id card for people who cross the border daily, but I see that idea as not getting anywhere as such a ID card would be too easily forged...I'm afraid the laws will apply equally across the board.
One nation under God


Submitted by klloyd on January 8, 2008 - 5:31am.

Hey Roj, 6 shooter and the...

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Hey Roj, 6 shooter and the Supernurse, glad to hear that you are so willing to concede a few minor personal liberties in order to insure the security of the state. I have a great idea along these same lines: why don't you round up all your guns and bring them down to the court house so we can get a good count of who has what. While I certainly trust all of you, I am a little worried that Joe Spoon could be sitting on the arsenal for the pasta god militia.

I oppose the passport idea because it comes from the same people who have shown a complete, total and absolute inability to demonstrate any common sense in their efforts to "enhance our security" Stand on the mezzanine at MSP airport and look down at what they have wrought: hundreds of TSA bureaucrats, hours of delays, endless lines and ridiculous rules. There are hundreds of dangers we confront on a daily basis that are more likely to harm ourselves and our family and friends than terrorist attack. Our preoccupation with this danger over all others defies logic and is propagated by politicians who have learned the power of "get them scared" and "keep them scared" as the most effective political tool in the last 50 years.


Submitted by bayside on January 8, 2008 - 11:09pm.

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